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	<title>Comments on: Warren Buffett&#8217;s Record Is Not Evidence The Efficient Market Hypothesis Is Wrong</title>
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	<link>http://amateurassetallocator.com/2009/07/01/warren-buffetts-record-is-not-evidence-the-efficient-market-hypothesis-is-wrong/</link>
	<description>Amateur Asset Allocator</description>
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		<title>By: Kyle</title>
		<link>http://amateurassetallocator.com/2009/07/01/warren-buffetts-record-is-not-evidence-the-efficient-market-hypothesis-is-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-5875</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 01:02:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://amateurassetallocator.com/?p=1869#comment-5875</guid>
		<description>Anon, I have read The Superinvestors of Graham-and-Doddsville and it represents a complete misunderstanding of statistical inference.  Suffice it to say I completely reject Buffett&#039;s argument on logical grounds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anon, I have read The Superinvestors of Graham-and-Doddsville and it represents a complete misunderstanding of statistical inference.  Suffice it to say I completely reject Buffett&#8217;s argument on logical grounds.</p>
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		<title>By: Anon</title>
		<link>http://amateurassetallocator.com/2009/07/01/warren-buffetts-record-is-not-evidence-the-efficient-market-hypothesis-is-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-5874</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 22:30:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://amateurassetallocator.com/?p=1869#comment-5874</guid>
		<description>Re: Random Luck

Buffett himself responded to this point 25 years ago. Read: The Superinvestors of Graham-and-Doddsville</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Random Luck</p>
<p>Buffett himself responded to this point 25 years ago. Read: The Superinvestors of Graham-and-Doddsville</p>
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		<title>By: stockmanmarc</title>
		<link>http://amateurassetallocator.com/2009/07/01/warren-buffetts-record-is-not-evidence-the-efficient-market-hypothesis-is-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-5781</link>
		<dc:creator>stockmanmarc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 16:28:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Kyle 
You state
&quot;Buffett’s superior long-term returns conceivably (and far more likely) originate from three primary sources other than skill.&quot;  1)Management Ability  2)Prestige 3)Random Luck

As an anonymous reader states &quot;Buffet does not have a direct hand in the management of his wholly owned companies&quot;

So you would have to rule the first one out. Prestige yes he gets the deals because e is on everyones radar, but what about in his early years 1956-69 when he ran his partnership fund? He whipped the market then. Luck? maybe that he is Warren Buffett. 

I don&#039;t think its random or coincidence that most investors that studied/worked under Buffett&#039;s mentor Ben Graham have outperformed the markets over long periods of time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kyle<br />
You state<br />
&#8220;Buffett’s superior long-term returns conceivably (and far more likely) originate from three primary sources other than skill.&#8221;  1)Management Ability  2)Prestige 3)Random Luck</p>
<p>As an anonymous reader states &#8220;Buffet does not have a direct hand in the management of his wholly owned companies&#8221;</p>
<p>So you would have to rule the first one out. Prestige yes he gets the deals because e is on everyones radar, but what about in his early years 1956-69 when he ran his partnership fund? He whipped the market then. Luck? maybe that he is Warren Buffett. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think its random or coincidence that most investors that studied/worked under Buffett&#8217;s mentor Ben Graham have outperformed the markets over long periods of time.</p>
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		<title>By: LinkStuff For July 8 &#171; Daily News</title>
		<link>http://amateurassetallocator.com/2009/07/01/warren-buffetts-record-is-not-evidence-the-efficient-market-hypothesis-is-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-4369</link>
		<dc:creator>LinkStuff For July 8 &#171; Daily News</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 00:26:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://amateurassetallocator.com/?p=1869#comment-4369</guid>
		<description>[...] Amateur Asset Allocator says that Buffett&#8217;s record doesn&#8217;t mean that the efficient market hypothesis is wrong. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Amateur Asset Allocator says that Buffett&#8217;s record doesn&#8217;t mean that the efficient market hypothesis is wrong. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Feng</title>
		<link>http://amateurassetallocator.com/2009/07/01/warren-buffetts-record-is-not-evidence-the-efficient-market-hypothesis-is-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-4362</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Feng</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 06:32:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://amateurassetallocator.com/?p=1869#comment-4362</guid>
		<description>Bank collapses in the past year were also examples of market inefficiency. At first the banks were able to hold their stock prices by using accounting tricks to exaggerate their intangible assets. The public had a false perception of the bank&#039;s total assets, but hedge fund managers such as John Paulson did not. He examined the bank&#039;s past balance sheets and realized that the bank&#039;s tangible assets were in fact in the negative range, so the bank&#039;s claimed assets must have come from exaggerated intangible assets. The average investors often do not analyze balance sheets, and their false perception were not destroyed until news of bank failures and bail out were all over the place. As a result John Paulson proftted handsomely by short selling bank stocks before the public understood the situation. 

I mentioned before that all publically available information must be subjectively interpretted and therefore can&#039;t be consistently rational. From the above example I would like to add that publically available information could well be ignored until they re-surface later in more obvious forms, creating an inefficient market.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bank collapses in the past year were also examples of market inefficiency. At first the banks were able to hold their stock prices by using accounting tricks to exaggerate their intangible assets. The public had a false perception of the bank&#8217;s total assets, but hedge fund managers such as John Paulson did not. He examined the bank&#8217;s past balance sheets and realized that the bank&#8217;s tangible assets were in fact in the negative range, so the bank&#8217;s claimed assets must have come from exaggerated intangible assets. The average investors often do not analyze balance sheets, and their false perception were not destroyed until news of bank failures and bail out were all over the place. As a result John Paulson proftted handsomely by short selling bank stocks before the public understood the situation. </p>
<p>I mentioned before that all publically available information must be subjectively interpretted and therefore can&#8217;t be consistently rational. From the above example I would like to add that publically available information could well be ignored until they re-surface later in more obvious forms, creating an inefficient market.</p>
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		<title>By: Cash Canuck</title>
		<link>http://amateurassetallocator.com/2009/07/01/warren-buffetts-record-is-not-evidence-the-efficient-market-hypothesis-is-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-4361</link>
		<dc:creator>Cash Canuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 06:29:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://amateurassetallocator.com/?p=1869#comment-4361</guid>
		<description>I think this argument is well thought-out. Anyone who has studied statistics even in passing will know that outliers are just part of the equation when dealing with massive amounts of data. There is no doubt that Warren Buffet qualifies as an outlier. However, attributing his outlier status to luck is a fallacy. He uses a system, other super-pickers use other systems to varying degrees of success. As far as I know, none of history&#039;s great stock pickers have attributed their success to &quot;guessing&quot; or a &quot;luck&quot; system. 

Lots of lotto players have a &quot;system&quot; for picking numbers. Those people win the lotto just as often as those people who guess, so you could say that luck is responsible for winning the lotto.

I agree that the existence of Warren Buffet does not disprove efficient market hypothesis. Buffet himself has agreed that securities&#039; market performance does reflect the available information IN THE LONG TERM. Buffet and other long-term value investors call this reversion to the mean. In a nutshell, it means day-to-day fluctuations cannot be predicted with any certainty, but long-term performance can be predicted using available factual data.

Thanks for reading my rant, which has no citations and is based completely on my opinions :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this argument is well thought-out. Anyone who has studied statistics even in passing will know that outliers are just part of the equation when dealing with massive amounts of data. There is no doubt that Warren Buffet qualifies as an outlier. However, attributing his outlier status to luck is a fallacy. He uses a system, other super-pickers use other systems to varying degrees of success. As far as I know, none of history&#8217;s great stock pickers have attributed their success to &#8220;guessing&#8221; or a &#8220;luck&#8221; system. </p>
<p>Lots of lotto players have a &#8220;system&#8221; for picking numbers. Those people win the lotto just as often as those people who guess, so you could say that luck is responsible for winning the lotto.</p>
<p>I agree that the existence of Warren Buffet does not disprove efficient market hypothesis. Buffet himself has agreed that securities&#8217; market performance does reflect the available information IN THE LONG TERM. Buffet and other long-term value investors call this reversion to the mean. In a nutshell, it means day-to-day fluctuations cannot be predicted with any certainty, but long-term performance can be predicted using available factual data.</p>
<p>Thanks for reading my rant, which has no citations and is based completely on my opinions <img src='http://amateurassetallocator.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Mark Feng</title>
		<link>http://amateurassetallocator.com/2009/07/01/warren-buffetts-record-is-not-evidence-the-efficient-market-hypothesis-is-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-4359</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Feng</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 06:21:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://amateurassetallocator.com/?p=1869#comment-4359</guid>
		<description>There are in fact plenty of evidence against the efficient market theory. The 2000-2001 technology bubble is the easiest example. The publicly available information shows that the newly formed tech companies do not even have revenues, and that their claimed partnership with large companies are not backed by collaborated projects. However blind optimism pushed the price of small newly formed companies hundreds of percent above their IPO price. Such publicaly available information would certainlly show that those companies are not solid investments and consequently in an efficient market there&#039;s no place for those crazy price surges. The bubble would have been self corrected before it even got big enough to burst in 2001. Was there such a self correction? Evidently not. 

What proponents of traditional theories often  do not consider is that no matter what publicly available information are there, all of those information must be subjectively interpretted. It is not realistic to claim that the subjective interpretation of the market participants will always or almost always confirm rationally with the underlying fundemental, thus creating an efficient market.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are in fact plenty of evidence against the efficient market theory. The 2000-2001 technology bubble is the easiest example. The publicly available information shows that the newly formed tech companies do not even have revenues, and that their claimed partnership with large companies are not backed by collaborated projects. However blind optimism pushed the price of small newly formed companies hundreds of percent above their IPO price. Such publicaly available information would certainlly show that those companies are not solid investments and consequently in an efficient market there&#8217;s no place for those crazy price surges. The bubble would have been self corrected before it even got big enough to burst in 2001. Was there such a self correction? Evidently not. </p>
<p>What proponents of traditional theories often  do not consider is that no matter what publicly available information are there, all of those information must be subjectively interpretted. It is not realistic to claim that the subjective interpretation of the market participants will always or almost always confirm rationally with the underlying fundemental, thus creating an efficient market.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Feng</title>
		<link>http://amateurassetallocator.com/2009/07/01/warren-buffetts-record-is-not-evidence-the-efficient-market-hypothesis-is-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-4358</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Feng</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 06:08:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://amateurassetallocator.com/?p=1869#comment-4358</guid>
		<description>Also the difficulty of beating the market also depends on how much money you&#039;re managing. It is not uncommon at all for some amateaur investors to trade frequently in small cap stocks and gain oustanding percentage returns. However amateaur investors manage very little money, and the ones who get a few hundred percent returns a year are likely only managing a few thousands to a few hundred thousand dollars. 

Oh the other hand, managers of billion dollar funds have a much tougher job. They can not possibly take advantage of small flunctuations because the sheer size of their fund could in fact move the price and destroy the potential gain in those flunctuations. They can&#039;t go into and out of positions in a matter of minutes like amateaurs. For them , it would take months. Furthermore for mutual fund managers, they are restricted to investing a maximum 5% to each stock. As a result they may be forced to invest in less ideal stocks. Managers of large funds carry systematic risks that makes it hard for them to even meet the market average. 

Since beating the market also is determined by how much money is managed and the consequent systematic risk, I really do not understand why people make generalized assertion about the unlikelihood of beating the market average.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also the difficulty of beating the market also depends on how much money you&#8217;re managing. It is not uncommon at all for some amateaur investors to trade frequently in small cap stocks and gain oustanding percentage returns. However amateaur investors manage very little money, and the ones who get a few hundred percent returns a year are likely only managing a few thousands to a few hundred thousand dollars. </p>
<p>Oh the other hand, managers of billion dollar funds have a much tougher job. They can not possibly take advantage of small flunctuations because the sheer size of their fund could in fact move the price and destroy the potential gain in those flunctuations. They can&#8217;t go into and out of positions in a matter of minutes like amateaurs. For them , it would take months. Furthermore for mutual fund managers, they are restricted to investing a maximum 5% to each stock. As a result they may be forced to invest in less ideal stocks. Managers of large funds carry systematic risks that makes it hard for them to even meet the market average. </p>
<p>Since beating the market also is determined by how much money is managed and the consequent systematic risk, I really do not understand why people make generalized assertion about the unlikelihood of beating the market average.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Feng</title>
		<link>http://amateurassetallocator.com/2009/07/01/warren-buffetts-record-is-not-evidence-the-efficient-market-hypothesis-is-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-4357</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Feng</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 06:00:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://amateurassetallocator.com/?p=1869#comment-4357</guid>
		<description>I find it mind boggling that you said your retirement portfolio shows that it is pointless to attempt beating the market. Your portfolio consists mainly of various index funds, which will obviously mirror market average. Your portfolio shows that it is your choice to not attempt to beat the market,  but offers absolutely no evidence that there is in fact no point in trying to beat the market. 

Also we need to define what profiting by pure luck means. Profiting by pure luck means all of the participants were doing the exact same thing, and a few of them emerges with superior return. Buying the lottery is an example of pure luck because every single person chooses the numbers at random but someone is gonna win that multimillion jackpot. 
In the case of Warren Buffett, it is obvious that his approach isn&#039;t the same as the majority of the participants. The evidence? Perhaps you could read his letters to shareholder, and compare that to common people&#039;s approach to the market.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find it mind boggling that you said your retirement portfolio shows that it is pointless to attempt beating the market. Your portfolio consists mainly of various index funds, which will obviously mirror market average. Your portfolio shows that it is your choice to not attempt to beat the market,  but offers absolutely no evidence that there is in fact no point in trying to beat the market. </p>
<p>Also we need to define what profiting by pure luck means. Profiting by pure luck means all of the participants were doing the exact same thing, and a few of them emerges with superior return. Buying the lottery is an example of pure luck because every single person chooses the numbers at random but someone is gonna win that multimillion jackpot.<br />
In the case of Warren Buffett, it is obvious that his approach isn&#8217;t the same as the majority of the participants. The evidence? Perhaps you could read his letters to shareholder, and compare that to common people&#8217;s approach to the market.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://amateurassetallocator.com/2009/07/01/warren-buffetts-record-is-not-evidence-the-efficient-market-hypothesis-is-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-4355</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 18:27:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://amateurassetallocator.com/?p=1869#comment-4355</guid>
		<description>Buffet does not have a direct hand in the management of his wholly owned companies.
They are free to run the companies as they like. Not only did buffet purchase the companies for being an excellent business, he also bought them for their superior management.

I agree with you that markets are &quot;generally&quot; efficient, but more so to do with how quickly information is dispersed.
Markets can still do silly things from time to time.
Markets are people, and people never change.
Greed and fear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Buffet does not have a direct hand in the management of his wholly owned companies.<br />
They are free to run the companies as they like. Not only did buffet purchase the companies for being an excellent business, he also bought them for their superior management.</p>
<p>I agree with you that markets are &#8220;generally&#8221; efficient, but more so to do with how quickly information is dispersed.<br />
Markets can still do silly things from time to time.<br />
Markets are people, and people never change.<br />
Greed and fear.</p>
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